>> Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.

> Not so much this year. You have to make yours look better than the 10
> others the realtor is showing the buyer today.

> >> Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.

> > Not so much this year. You have to make yours look better than the 10
> > others the realtor is showing the buyer today.

> That is certainly true in my neighborhood. There are still quite a few
> short sales and foreclosures, all of which are listed for significantly
> less as-is than the other houses for sale. And there are at least 2-3
> others identical to mine (1950's end of group row house)within about a 4
> block radius. , and even more that are inside groups. And since I'm not
> living there, and am juggling two mortgages, I'm not going to quibble
> over too much! (Well except for the part where they want me to replace
> some cracked tiles on the bathroom wall. My contractor said that's
> asking for problems, that it'll go from 8 tiles to their neighbors and
> will end up with a bunch of tiles, none of which will match the
> originals. OTOH, the buyer didn't specify they have to match!)

> BTW, called an electrician from a company that had done work there
> before. He quoted $125 over the phone. He'll check to see if there is a
> ground. If not he also mentioned that it could be attached to the water
> pipe. Thanks for the help. It was such a relief to hear it would not be
> some thousand dollar type of repair! Onward and upward to where they
> want an unused sidewalk removed. And the chimney waterproofed.

>> Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
>> installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
>> it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
>> wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
>> seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
>> paying for that.

>> What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
>> year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
>> entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
>> mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
>> pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
>> plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
>> the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
>> problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
>> can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".

> Your relative is incorrect....are they a  contractor, electrician,
> engineer or a DIY's that knows anything?
> GFI's can be installed without a ground, they come with stickers "no
> equipment ground"

> Inspectors justify their fee & cover their butts by finding
> "defects"....makes the buyer think they're getting their money;s
> worth.

> Be cooperative, preserve the sale but dont give away the farm.
> Discuss the list with your realtor & a person knowledgeable as to the
> cost of each item ...have your realtor make the list go away.

> cheers
> Bob

>> GFCIs still work when there is no ground. The NEC explicitly allows them
>> to be installed when there is no ground, but in that case they have to
>> have the label several people have referred to. IMHO RBM's second post
>> is the best advice.

>> --
>> bud--
>> - Hide quoted text -

>> - Show quoted text -

> far better to install a ground wire.

> its not a killer expense

> > far better to install a ground wire.

> > its not a killer expense

> Using your Ouija board again?

> You have no idea how difficult it will be to add a ground wire.
> And it has not been code compliant for many years to attach it to a
> water pipe, except for the first 5 feet of pipe inside the building.

> --
> bud--

> > gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:05:39 -0500, "cshenk" <cshe...@cox.net> wrote:

> > >> Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.

> > > Not so much this year. You have to make yours look better than the 10
> > > others the realtor is showing the buyer today.

> > That is certainly true in my neighborhood. There are still quite a few
> > short sales and foreclosures, all of which are listed for significantly
> > less as-is than the other houses for sale. And there are at least 2-3
> > others identical to mine (1950's end of group row house)within about a 4
> > block radius. , and even more that are inside groups. And since I'm not
> > living there, and am juggling two mortgages, I'm not going to quibble
> > over too much! (Well except for the part where they want me to replace
> > some cracked tiles on the bathroom wall. My contractor said that's
> > asking for problems, that it'll go from 8 tiles to their neighbors and
> > will end up with a bunch of tiles, none of which will match the
> > originals. OTOH, the buyer didn't specify they have to match!)

> > BTW, called an electrician from a company that had done work there
> > before. He quoted $125 over the phone. He'll check to see if there is a
> > ground. If not he also mentioned that it could be attached to the water
> > pipe. Thanks for the help. It was such a relief to hear it would not be
> > some thousand dollar type of repair! Onward and upward to where they
> > want an unused sidewalk removed. And the chimney waterproofed.

> Lee-

> Fix the easy / cheap ones.

> The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent preson; turn off the
> power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle.
> Running a ground wire to the nearest water pipe is pretty much a hack
> solution.  My suggestion; if no ground at box, install & "sticker" the
> GFI.

> Negotiate some dollars to be held in the escrow acct to pay for some
> of the disputed items (chimney waterproofing & sidewalk
> removal) ...don't want to be fixing the laundry list  prior to sale &
> have the buyer back out.

> cheers
> Bob- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> >> GFCIs still work when there is no ground. The NEC explicitly allows them
> >> to be installed when there is no ground, but in that case they have to
> >> have the label several people have referred to. IMHO RBM's second post
> >> is the best advice.

> >> --
> >> bud--
> >> - Hide quoted text -

> >> - Show quoted text -

> The only newsreader that leaves this garbage is your retarded google
> one. The garbage is just more noise, even to the people that use
> google-groups. Editing is too difficult a concept?

> > far better to install a ground wire.

> > its not a killer expense

> Using your Ouija board again?

> You have no idea how difficult it will be to add a ground wire.
> And it has not been code compliant for many years to attach it to a
> water pipe, except for the first 5 feet of pipe inside the building.

> --
> bud--- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> >> GFCIs still work when there is no ground. The NEC explicitly allows
> >> them
> >> to be installed when there is no ground, but in that case they have to
> >> have the label several people have referred to. IMHO RBM's second post
> >> is the best advice.

> >> --
> >> bud--
> >> - Hide quoted text -

> >> - Show quoted text -

> The only newsreader that leaves this garbage is your retarded google
> one. The garbage is just more noise, even to the people that use
> google-groups. Editing is too difficult a concept?

> > far better to install a ground wire.

> > its not a killer expense

> Using your Ouija board again?

> You have no idea how difficult it will be to add a ground wire.
> And it has not been code compliant for many years to attach it to a
> water pipe, except for the first 5 feet of pipe inside the building.

> --
> bud--- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> most people overestimate the difficulty in fishing wires in walls.

> So, you've polled "most people" have you???- Hide quoted text -

> Exactly wrong.

> > On Nov 2, 6:02 pm, Lee B <not_my_real_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:05:39 -0500, "cshenk" <cshe...@cox.net> wrote:

> > > >> Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.

> > > > Not so much this year. You have to make yours look better than the 10
> > > > others the realtor is showing the buyer today.

> > > That is certainly true in my neighborhood. There are still quite a few
> > > short sales and foreclosures, all of which are listed for significantly
> > > less as-is than the other houses for sale. And there are at least 2-3
> > > others identical to mine (1950's end of group row house)within about a 4
> > > block radius. , and even more that are inside groups. And since I'm not
> > > living there, and am juggling two mortgages, I'm not going to quibble
> > > over too much! (Well except for the part where they want me to replace
> > > some cracked tiles on the bathroom wall. My contractor said that's
> > > asking for problems, that it'll go from 8 tiles to their neighbors and
> > > will end up with a bunch of tiles, none of which will match the
> > > originals. OTOH, the buyer didn't specify they have to match!)

> > > BTW, called an electrician from a company that had done work there
> > > before. He quoted $125 over the phone. He'll check to see if there is a
> > > ground. If not he also mentioned that it could be attached to the water
> > > pipe. Thanks for the help. It was such a relief to hear it would not be
> > > some thousand dollar type of repair! Onward and upward to where they
> > > want an unused sidewalk removed. And the chimney waterproofed.

> > Lee-

> > Fix the easy / cheap ones.

> > The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent preson; turn off the
> > power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle.
> > Running a ground wire to the nearest water pipe is pretty much a hack
> > solution.  My suggestion; if no ground at box, install & "sticker" the
> > GFI.

> > Negotiate some dollars to be held in the escrow acct to pay for some
> > of the disputed items (chimney waterproofing & sidewalk
> > removal) ...don't want to be fixing the laundry list  prior to sale &
> > have the buyer back out.

> > cheers
> > Bob- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -

> re: "The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent person; turn off
> the power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle. "

> That's assuming the GFCI fits in the original box. My house was built
> in '56 and getting GFCI's into some of the original work boxes was
> either difficult or impossible.
>>>>getting GFCI's into some of the original work boxes was  either difficult or impossible.<<<<<<<<

> <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Nov 3, 10:28?pm, AZ Nomad <aznoma...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:51:11 -0500, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
> >> >I believe the GFCI itself needs a ground, it's the stuff downstream that
> >> >doesn't.

> >> Exactly wrong.

> >Well you can have trooubles depending on what you plug in. some
> >devices REQUIRE a ground for proper operation.

> >computers, fluroscent lamps, come quickly to mind..........

> Computers need a ground? That would certainly be news to the two that
> have been running in my cars for close to a decade.

> > On Nov 2, 9:34 pm, DD_BobK <rkaza...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > On Nov 2, 6:02 pm, Lee B <not_my_real_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > > gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:05:39 -0500, "cshenk" <cshe...@cox.net> wrote:

> > > > >> Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.

> > > > > Not so much this year. You have to make yours look better than the 10
> > > > > others the realtor is showing the buyer today.

> > > > That is certainly true in my neighborhood. There are still quite a few
> > > > short sales and foreclosures, all of which are listed for significantly
> > > > less as-is than the other houses for sale. And there are at least 2-3
> > > > others identical to mine (1950's end of group row house)within about a 4
> > > > block radius. , and even more that are inside groups. And since I'm not
> > > > living there, and am juggling two mortgages, I'm not going to quibble
> > > > over too much! (Well except for the part where they want me to replace
> > > > some cracked tiles on the bathroom wall. My contractor said that's
> > > > asking for problems, that it'll go from 8 tiles to their neighbors and
> > > > will end up with a bunch of tiles, none of which will match the
> > > > originals. OTOH, the buyer didn't specify they have to match!)

> > > > BTW, called an electrician from a company that had done work there
> > > > before. He quoted $125 over the phone. He'll check to see if there is a
> > > > ground. If not he also mentioned that it could be attached to the water
> > > > pipe. Thanks for the help. It was such a relief to hear it would not be
> > > > some thousand dollar type of repair! Onward and upward to where they
> > > > want an unused sidewalk removed. And the chimney waterproofed.

> > > Lee-

> > > Fix the easy / cheap ones.

> > > The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent preson; turn off the
> > > power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle.
> > > Running a ground wire to the nearest water pipe is pretty much a hack
> > > solution.  My suggestion; if no ground at box, install & "sticker" the
> > > GFI.

> > > Negotiate some dollars to be held in the escrow acct to pay for some
> > > of the disputed items (chimney waterproofing & sidewalk
> > > removal) ...don't want to be fixing the laundry list  prior to sale &
> > > have the buyer back out.

> > > cheers
> > > Bob- Hide quoted text -

> > > - Show quoted text -

> > re: "The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent person; turn off
> > the power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle. "

> > That's assuming the GFCI fits in the original box. My house was built
> > in '56 and getting GFCI's into some of the original work boxes was
> > either difficult or impossible.
> >>>>getting GFCI's into some of the original work boxes was  either difficult or impossible.<<<<<<<<

> ........and a reasonably competent person would be able to figure this
> out.

> btw  some of the currently available GFI's are a bit smaller than
> first generation GFI's and are an easier install

> getting first generation GFI's into (1980) metal "old work" was tough
> but doable

> cheers
> Bob

> cheers
> Bob- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Nov 4, 12:17?am, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> >> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:18:57 -0800 (PST), "hall...@aol.com"

> >> <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >On Nov 3, 10:28?pm, AZ Nomad <aznoma...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:51:11 -0500, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
> >> >> >I believe the GFCI itself needs a ground, it's the stuff downstream that
> >> >> >doesn't.

> >> >> Exactly wrong.

> >> >Well you can have trooubles depending on what you plug in. some
> >> >devices REQUIRE a ground for proper operation.

> >> >computers, fluroscent lamps, come quickly to mind..........

> >> Computers need a ground? That would certainly be news to the two that
> >> have been running in my cars for close to a decade.

> >car computers are grounded to the vehicle.

> >at least a few years ago many PCs needed to be grounded. no ground can
> >cause static issues

> Please describe "static issues". Give examples, too.- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

>> Exactly wrong.
>Well you can have trooubles depending on what you plug in. some
>devices REQUIRE a ground for proper operation.
>computers, fluroscent lamps, come quickly to mind..........

>>> Exactly wrong.
>>Well you can have trooubles depending on what you plug in. some
>>devices REQUIRE a ground for proper operation.
>>computers, fluroscent lamps, come quickly to mind..........
>all will work perfectly without a ground.  keep trying.
>The ground is there for equipment operation.  It's there to safeguard the human
>during a electrical fault (110 breaks loose, touches the case;  transformer
>isolation breaks down, etc.)

>A ground might be necessary for some surge protectors to work.  The
>computer that's plugged into it, not so much.

>>You don't need a ground to avoid "static issues" either.  

>I believe that's exactly what I said.

> > On Nov 3, 12:16 pm, DerbyDad03 <teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote:

> > > On Nov 2, 9:34 pm, DD_BobK <rkaza...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > On Nov 2, 6:02 pm, Lee B <not_my_real_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > > > gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:05:39 -0500, "cshenk" <cshe...@cox.net> wrote:

> > > > > >> Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.

> > > > > > Not so much this year. You have to make yours look better than the 10
> > > > > > others the realtor is showing the buyer today.

> > > > > That is certainly true in my neighborhood. There are still quite a few
> > > > > short sales and foreclosures, all of which are listed for significantly
> > > > > less as-is than the other houses for sale. And there are at least 2-3
> > > > > others identical to mine (1950's end of group row house)within about a 4
> > > > > block radius. , and even more that are inside groups. And since I'm not
> > > > > living there, and am juggling two mortgages, I'm not going to quibble
> > > > > over too much! (Well except for the part where they want me to replace
> > > > > some cracked tiles on the bathroom wall. My contractor said that's
> > > > > asking for problems, that it'll go from 8 tiles to their neighbors and
> > > > > will end up with a bunch of tiles, none of which will match the
> > > > > originals. OTOH, the buyer didn't specify they have to match!)

> > > > > BTW, called an electrician from a company that had done work there
> > > > > before. He quoted $125 over the phone. He'll check to see if there is a
> > > > > ground. If not he also mentioned that it could be attached to the water
> > > > > pipe. Thanks for the help. It was such a relief to hear it would not be
> > > > > some thousand dollar type of repair! Onward and upward to where they
> > > > > want an unused sidewalk removed. And the chimney waterproofed.

> > > > Lee-

> > > > Fix the easy / cheap ones.

> > > > The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent preson; turn off the
> > > > power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle.
> > > > Running a ground wire to the nearest water pipe is pretty much a hack
> > > > solution.  My suggestion; if no ground at box, install & "sticker" the
> > > > GFI.

> > > > Negotiate some dollars to be held in the escrow acct to pay for some
> > > > of the disputed items (chimney waterproofing & sidewalk
> > > > removal) ...don't want to be fixing the laundry list  prior to sale &
> > > > have the buyer back out.

> > > > cheers
> > > > Bob- Hide quoted text -

> > > > - Show quoted text -

> > > re: "The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent person; turn off
> > > the power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle. "

> > > That's assuming the GFCI fits in the original box. My house was built
> > > in '56 and getting GFCI's into some of the original work boxes was
> > > either difficult or impossible.
> > >>>>getting GFCI's into some of the original work boxes was  either difficult or impossible.<<<<<<<<

> > ........and a reasonably competent person would be able to figure this
> > out.

> > btw  some of the currently available GFI's are a bit smaller than
> > first generation GFI's and are an easier install

> > getting first generation GFI's into (1980) metal "old work" was tough
> > but doable

> > cheers
> > Bob

> > cheers
> > Bob- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -

> re: "...and a reasonably competent person would be able to figure this
> out."

> Right, except that you never mentioned that in your earlier post.

> You listed the steps required to swap it, without any caveats, which
> is why I brought it up.

>>> far better to install a ground wire.
>>> its not a killer expense
>> Using your Ouija board again?

>> You have no idea how difficult it will be to add a ground wire.
>> And it has not been code compliant for many years to attach it to a
>> water pipe, except for the first 5 feet of pipe inside the building.

>> --
>> bud--

> And the reason your previously posted replies contained lots of
> "quoted text" that you failed to "edit"  ...might be?

> Editing is too difficult a concept?

> >>> far better to install a ground wire.
> >>> its not a killer expense
> >> Using your Ouija board again?

> >> You have no idea how difficult it will be to add a ground wire.
> >> And it has not been code compliant for many years to attach it to a
> >> water pipe, except for the first 5 feet of pipe inside the building.

> >> --
> >> bud--

> > And the reason your previously posted replies contained lots of
> > "quoted text" that you failed to "edit"  ...might be?

> > Editing is too difficult a concept?

> Could be equally applied to hallerb.

> On the other had you cleverly edited out the context for my reply and
> left parts that are not relevant.
> Editing is too difficult a concept?

> In any case, at least leaving "too much" gives the context for how the
> thread got where it is.

> The relics inserted by the google "newsreader" are garbage. They are
> 100% noise. When I use google I carefully edit them out.

> --
> bud--